Buzzing problem with Charvel Strat (truss rod adjusted)

[Pierre]

hey there
In February I got a Charvel model 4 and it needed a fret level so I had it done, and since then I set the guitar up myself and it's just perfect. No buzz, even in C standard (the tuning I'm in now) and an action about 1mm or so.
I got a Charvel model 1a few days ago and I've been trying to set it up but I ran into a few problems. There's more relief than on the model 4 (just under the thickness of a business card, which is the typical amount. So I still have room for another adjustement) and the action is 2.5 mm on the 12th fret/low E, and it buzzes a lot. Since I got it I adjusted the neck 3 times and got less buzz but it's still noticeable and very annoying. There's much less on the lower frets now so it's not too bad for chords but it's bothering me everywhere else on the neck. The guitar has a vintage trem set up for a 15" radius but the neck itself has a compound radius, I don't know which exactly. Also the nut is cut properly, I tested it.
The symptoms tell me it's a fret problem. I guess the guitar needs a fret levelling? But the guitar tech at Dirk Witte (Amsterdam, for those of you who know or may want to advise others, though I love this place) told me that the frets seemed quite level and indeed they seem so, along with not so much wear. It still seems like the most plausible cause to the problem.
Here are some pictures of the frets:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/PierreEmmanuel/DSC01343.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/PierreEmmanuel/DSC01344.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/PierreEmmanuel/DSC01345.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/PierreEmmanuel/DSC01346.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/PierreEmmanuel/DSC01347.jpg
Well I hope some of you will be able to help me... Thanks a lot for reading this if you take the time, I know it's a lot but I really am wondering what the heck is wrong with her :???: :-(

[Mattia]

This might help:

[url]http://www.mimf.com/buzzfaq.htm[url]

You sure it's fret rattle, and not some other kind of buzzing? Also, unless the guys at Dirk Witte took a good straightedge, straightened out the neck (adjusting truss rod, and/or slacking strings off) and checked for a good, level fretboard, there's simply no way to know whether those frets are level. Your eyes usually can't tell you if that's the problem. It only takes a few 'out of level' to make things to fairly haywire.

[Orpheo]

well....what i can tell, you need to adjust your neck once more....but then to make sure that you highten up action just a bit.
if you use the trussrod, you make the action higher at the lower frets (i mean, the first 5 to 7 frets) and if you use the bridge to highten the action, you make it higher from fret number 12.

does that help?

but just a bit of nitpicking: the charvel model 4 had sharktooth inlays and a floyd rose style bridge, no binding at the frets and fingerboard, rosewood fingerboard, and bolt on neck...

this one is the charvel strat (one, which I DESPERATLY want!!!) lovely axe dude!

[Pierre]

I know, I also have a model 4, this is my other guitar :P The model 4 I set up PERFECTLY which is what bothers me. That's a model 1a. I got it for 200 euros, if you're interested I think that's the standard price for which they go for, there sometimes are some on ebay US or marktplaats.
The main problem right now is that it buzzes even with the high action. With the adjustements I made, I didn't lower the action. So it's still high for me, and it still buzzes. Another adjustement may or may not stop most of the buzzing (as I am just at the 'typical' amount of relief now and I am quite cautious) but it will raise the action a bit, which I will then have to lower, and on for more buzz. Should I tighten the neck, it will buzz more on the low frets, and loosen it, it will raise the action.
So I'm a bit stuck, which leaves me to say it's the frets. I will adjust it once more tomorrow but I don't have high hopes. Thanks for the help anyway :)

[fred dons]

did you try to play with a capo on the neck (to check wether the problem might be in the (locking) nut
it also could be that you have a problem with the saddles (easily checked, if the problem still occurs on the 22nd fret, its not the fretwork :D )

you don't have one of you pickups raised to high (sounds stupid but at one time one of the polepieces of my bridge pickups just touched the string which was barely visable but still made buzzing sound when playing and I tried severel remedies before i found this out :razz: )

did you check the whole fretboard to see on which strings and at what fret it occurs ?

[Pierre]

Yep... I did. All strings, all frets but when I fret the 1st. That's a lot of buzz :lol: It's not the nut, I checked, and it's not the pickups either, they're pretty low now (I lowered them before). The guitar doens't have a locking nut though. I'll check the saddles but it is fretbuzz I'm sure of it (noise) and I can't really raise the action anymore (there's a limit to everything, I can't play a guitar with a 3 mm string height :|)

Opps my bad: the buzz stops at the 19th fret.

[fred dons]

did you try it with new strings?

at one time I removed some older strings to clean the fretboard and restrung the guitar using the same strings these strings had developped some dimples and bumps in the area where I had pressed the string on the fret before, when I re-strung these bumps had now moved half a milimeter and where no directly over the fret

normally fretbuzz only occurs on part (s) of the neck and not the whole neck,

your frets are kind of flat (they were not recrowned when they were levelled before) and this can cause buzzing however your frets don't look that extremely flat to me

[Pierre]

The strings are new. I got it changed as soon as I got the guitar.
Yeah... I'll see about the frets, I'm not qualified enough (or at all :lol: ) to diagnose them. I just tried raising the action again but yeah... I also changed the radius to a 10" one. There's a minimum improvement but it's always better.

[Iokitek]

Just sell it and try to find another one if everything you've tried really doesn't work. It's a pain in the ass to fix fretbuzz. To me setting the action higher is not an option. But neither is fretbuzz. I want the action as low as humanly possible. And on a well constructed guitar this should be possible.

I know that's probably not what you want to hear :wink: But it's how I see it.

Most musicstores sell their guitars with the action set very high because they know the necks/fingerboards/frets are not straight. Usually when I ask a store owner to lower the action for me they first claim that it is already set very low. But then I argue that there's is still alot of space left. And I show them with some fret tapping that it doesn't respond well because the action is too high. Then they usually try to get away with "oh no that'll take too long for us to setup just so you can try it out" But it should only take about 15 minutes if they are professionals (most of them are not). Some stores have done this for me though and then I found out immediatelly that atleast the E and A string had huge amounts of fretbuzz. I've never been to a guitarstore and found a guitar without fretbuzz. The only one I ever found was actually a Samick. Go figure. But the neck was way too thick for me. Most musicstore owners around here don't like me much because I tell them honestly what I think of the crap they sell :razz: if only they would listen perhaps they wouldn't get as much complaints. Although complaints often mean repairs wich means income to them. The only things I buy from them are things such as strings and plectrums.

Lately I've been thinking about how I use my plectrum though. Sometimes when I hit a low string it sounds good. But when I hit it harder it causes fretbuzz. So I'm either doing something wrong myself or it really is something in the neck or frets or whatever. I can drive myself crazy trying to figure out how to get rid of it. But if it really is my playing style then I'm f...ed because I play like that automatically and then I have to learn how to play all over again. hmmm maybe some thinner strings might also make them less floppy. hmmm. I need to go ponder on it all for awhile. I also need the nut replaced because it's worn out. Oh well... just thinking out loud...

[Mattia]

Just sell it and try to find another one if everything you've tried really doesn't work. It's a pain in the ass to fix fretbuzz. To me setting the action higher is not an option. But neither is fretbuzz. I want the action as low as humanly possible. And on a well constructed guitar this should be possible.

I know that's probably not what you want to hear :wink: But it's how I see it.

Most musicstores sell their guitars with the action set very high because they know the necks/fingerboards/frets are not straight. Usually when I ask a store owner to lower the action for me they first claim that it is already set very low. But then I argue that there's is still alot of space left. And I show them with some fret tapping that it doesn't respond well because the action is too high. Then they usually try to get away with "oh no that'll take too long for us to setup just so you can try it out" But it should only take about 15 minutes if they are professionals (most of them are not). Some stores have done this for me though and then I found out immediatelly that atleast the E and A string had huge amounts of fretbuzz. I've never been to a guitarstore and found a guitar without fretbuzz. The only one I ever found was actually a Samick. Go figure. But the neck was way too thick for me. Most musicstore owners around here don't like me much because I tell them honestly what I think of the crap they sell :razz: if only they would listen perhaps they wouldn't get as much complaints. Although complaints often mean repairs wich means income to them. The only things I buy from them are things such as strings and plectrums.

Lately I've been thinking about how I use my plectrum though. Sometimes when I hit a low string it sounds good. But when I hit it harder it causes fretbuzz. So I'm either doing something wrong myself or it really is something in the neck or frets or whatever. I can drive myself crazy trying to figure out how to get rid of it. But if it really is my playing style then I'm f...ed because I play like that automatically and then I have to learn how to play all over again. hmmm maybe some thinner strings might also make them less floppy. hmmm. I need to go ponder on it all for awhile. I also need the nut replaced because it's worn out. Oh well... just thinking out loud...

Honestly, a good setup might only take 15 minutes, but could take longer if the neck's being fickle. Especially on cheaper (Read that as sub-1000 buck) guitars, you're not unlikely to need a bit of tweaking at the nut, etc. to get the action where it's most comfortable for you to play. And yes, on cheaper guitars, you may need a fret level and some more truss rod tweaking here and there. Additionally, while some love super duper low action, a medium action height is probably most appropriate for most guitars in a store; many people, including myself, don't like super thin necks and crazy!low action. Smooth, medium low action, medium sized necks, yeah. Ibanez Wizard set to barely anything? Not s'much, ta.

As to your fretbuzz issue: there's no such thing as 'perfect' action and setup. It's got everything to do with playing style. If it's nice and, low, minimal but sufficient relief (too little relief, and it'll buzz all over the place, too much relief and you won't be able to get the string at the height your want them.), you can get the strings very low and play clean with a light touch. Dig in with the pick, and voila, rattle. Meaning you'd need maybe a hair more relief, and higher action to get away with hitting the strings that hard. So, bascially, yeah, you're probably fucked. Sorry. Thinner strings are usually worse than thicker strings for rattle and going out of tune, because they're at lower tension, and 'flop' around more easily.

[Pierre]

Yeah, truss rod and action wise, I'm fucked. What I could do is shim the neck and have the frets levelled, it's all I have left.
And the guitar itself is pretty good. It's just very old and while the body is in real good shape, I think the neck didn't receive loads of TLC. Poor thing :-( I won't sell it until I repair her since it's the reason why I bought her: modding, repairing, get experience. I think we all know here what great quality those Charvel model series are.
About the action, I'm still a beginner myself. The lower the better. On my model 4 it's VERY low, and there is no buzz whatsoever. I set it up myself and it's the nicest playing guitar I have ever played. I just thought it'd be possible with the model 1a... But there is something else wrong than just action + relief I'm sure. I'll see what the pros tell me :)

[Iokitek]

I don't think low action is all that crazy actually ;) But I'm beginning to see what you mean about me perhaps having an attack that's too hard. So that causes fretbuzz when the action is too low. Perhaps I should find a compromise then and just work a little harder with fret tapping. I just like it better when I don't have to work that hard. But I don't expect it to be perfect. No guitar is or will ever be perfect. Unfortunately :(

I did mean thicker strings btw :oops: I knew that. Although thicker strings can also make the fretbuzz worse if the action is so low. dillema's, dillema's. I guess I should first have the nut replaced and see how it does then. And I should also try and get the neck straightened out just a tad bit more. I can hardly see it but I suspect it's not entirely straight. I have an appointment on saturday with "De Brug" in Monickendam. I guess I should just stop trying out things until I've been there. I don't have an Ibanez or any other type of shredder actually. I just have a Pearl Les Paul Copy from the 70's. So the neck is actually pretty thick as opposed to any shredder guitar out there. But I just love the sound.

Most stores I can go to here don't have the action at medium though. Or atleast it doesn't seem to be medium. Because if it is then I don't want to know what high action is according to them. But some of them already have fretbuzz at 'medium'. I guess you just can't expect much more from a $400 guitar.

That Charvel Model 4 sounds like a gem to me though :) I'd hold on to it if I were you and totally 'pimp' it out :-D I would love to do all the work on my own guitar already. But I'm just so afraid I'll mess something up. And I love her too much to do that to her. So I'm also getting some oldies/cheapos to fix up. And if it won't work then atleast I have some nice wood for the fireplace :razz:

[Pierre]

I'm working on it. I have a Seymour Duncan TB10 Full Shred for her brigde pickup position that I'll probably install tomorrow and I'm receiving a Bill Lawrence (original, German one) 450L that I may put in the model 1a but that may end up in the model 4's middle position too.

[Iokitek]

sounds like you have big plans :) good luck to you then