Gitaar1982
30 juli 2008, 21:46
Hallo allemaal. Ik ben nieuw op deze forum.
Ik speel zelf een baglama/saz. Dit is een snaarinstrument
wat veel wordt bespeeld in Turkije.
Ik heb veel gelezen over hoe de lak op het bovenblad het
geluid kan beinvloeden. Polyester nitro zouden het geluid dempen, het bovenblad minder goed laten vibreren. Schellak
is beter, maar biedt minder bescherming. Dit is ook mijn ervaring met de saz instrumenten die ik heb.
Ik heb zeer interessante info gevonden over de lak die Stradivarius gebruikt zou hebben voor zijn instrumenten. De info komt van een Amerikaanse professor Nagyvary.
''One of the most widely known theories is that the secret lies in a special kind of varnish used. Scholars from Cambridge University used electron microscopy to identify many of the ingredients of the varnish itself and the materials used to smooth the surface before the varnish is applied (1). They concluded that most could have easily been bought from the pharmacist shop next to Stradivari's workshop and that there is no convincing evidence to support the idea of a secret formula. Joseph Nagyvary has a slightly different take on the varnish issue. He claims that the local lumberman and the local apothecary simply happened to supply Stradivari with the ideal wood and perfect varnish; the production of his magnificent and extraordinary instruments was just a lucky accident (3).
The secret to producing such amazing tonal quality, he claims lies in the varnish. Nagyvary proposes the idea that the insect-repelling mixture of "salt of gems" (which are finely crushed crystals) and borax that the Cremonese violin makers used as varnish is what fossilized the wood to a perfect pitch (3). He believed that the violin makers treated their wood with mineral solutions, which is not a far-fetched idea, as the alchemy books of the time had plenty of recipes for mineral-rich wood preservatives used by furniture makers to protect chairs and tables against damage from insects and general rot. Salt of gems was commonly used as well to add stiffness to the wood and make the finish glitter. Nagyvary's idea is that the accidental chemical reaction of phosphates and wood lifted Stradivarius's violins to a whole new level.
The finish of the most pristine of the surviving Stradivarius instruments has a brittle, almost glassy look. If Stradivari's varnish contained sugar or a polysaccharide, the molecules would have attached to one another and to the wood, stiffening it so it could vibrate more efficiently (4). Fruit-tree extracts were widely used in wood varnishes as well, and Nagyvary claims that the pectin creates polymers which continue to add to the superior brilliance of the Stradivarius tonal quality (3). Unfortunately, ultraviolet photography has revealed that many fine-sounding Italian violins have lost almost all their original varnish. These violins were recoated during the 19th century or later (1). Therefore, the composition of the varnish may have had little to do with the overall superior tonal quality of the Stradivarius violins. ''
Ik heb niet veel verstand van scheikunde, maar het lijkt wel logisch wat deze man claimt. De lak die Stradivarius gebruikte, bevat mineralen(calcium, magnesium) en zeer fijne steen. Dit maakt de lak harder, stijver.
''On the most pristine surviving Stradivarius violins, by contrast, the finish has a brittle, almost glassy look. "It's like a toffee apple," says Nagyvary. He believes that there are good reasons for this. A toffee apple's surface is hard and shiny because the molecules that make up its sugar coating link to form long, interlocked chains. If the Stradivarius varnish contained sugar or a polysaccharide, the molecules would have attached to one another and to the wood, stiffening it so it could vibrate more efficiently, the opposite of what happens with oil.
Nagyvary found support for his belief in 16th-century documents noting that wood finishes frequently contained powdered glass, porcelain or amber to add stiffness to the wood and make the finish glitter like a gem, and that fruit-tree extracts were widely used in wood varnishes.
"This makes perfect sense," he says. "The pectin creates beautiful polymers. It's what makes jellies jell." He picks up a beaker filled with a solution of gum from the guar plant. He adds borax, "in this mixture it acts as a cross-linker, weaving the chains of sugar molecules into a web". Suddenly, the liquid solidifies into a gelatinous mass. "We need an emulsifier, to make it fluid enough to work into the wood. I like to use ox-bile." He also adds quartz, amber, gypsum, coral, zinc and powdered ruby and sapphire. By the time he's ready to apply the mixture to the instruments he makes, it has the consistency of mayonnaise. ''
Nagyvary heeft zijn violen en Stradivarius' violen laten bespelen voor een publiek met van veel mensen. De mensen wisten niet of Nagyvary's viool of Strad's werd bespeeld. Aan het eind, werd er geen verschil gevonden tussen beide violen.
Hier is wat meer info over de speciale lak:
''On the most pristine surviving Stradivarius violins, by contrast, the finish has a brittle, almost glassy look. "It's like a toffee apple," says Nagyvary. He believes that there are good reasons for this. A toffee apple's surface is hard and shiny because the molecules that make up its sugar coating link to form long, interlocked chains. If the Stradivarius varnish contained sugar or a polysaccharide, the molecules would have attached to one another and to the wood, stiffening it so it could vibrate more efficiently, the opposite of what happens with oil.
Nagyvary found support for his belief in 16th-century documents noting that wood finishes frequently contained powdered glass, porcelain or amber to add stiffness to the wood and make the finish glitter like a gem, and that fruit-tree extracts were widely used in wood varnishes.
"This makes perfect sense," he says. "The pectin creates beautiful polymers. It's what makes jellies jell." He picks up a beaker filled with a solution of gum from the guar plant. He adds borax, "in this mixture it acts as a cross-linker, weaving the chains of sugar molecules into a web". Suddenly, the liquid solidifies into a gelatinous mass. "We need an emulsifier, to make it fluid enough to work into the wood. I like to use ox-bile." He also adds quartz, amber, gypsum, coral, zinc and powdered ruby and sapphire. By the time he's ready to apply the mixture to the instruments he makes, it has the consistency of mayonnaise.''
Dus volgens Nagyvary, moet een goede lak, zeer fijn steen, zeer fijn glaspoeder, bevatten om de lak stijver te maken, waardoor het bovenblad beter vibreert. Je moet ook iets toevoegen om de lak, met het glaspoeder EEN te maken, pectine of borax. Hierdoor krijg je polymeren. Dit kun je natuurlijk zo niet aanbrengen, daarom gebruik je een emulgator, Nagyvary gebruikt ox bile(gal). Uiteindelijk krijgt ie iets wat lijkt op mayonnaise en dit kun je op het bovenblad aanbrengen.
Hier is een kort videootje hierover:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pKKRNDdV7M
Is een beetje moeilijke info, maar ik denk dat deze info ons kan helpen om echt beter geluid te krijgen uit onze instrument.
Ik wacht op jullie reacties.
Ik speel zelf een baglama/saz. Dit is een snaarinstrument
wat veel wordt bespeeld in Turkije.
Ik heb veel gelezen over hoe de lak op het bovenblad het
geluid kan beinvloeden. Polyester nitro zouden het geluid dempen, het bovenblad minder goed laten vibreren. Schellak
is beter, maar biedt minder bescherming. Dit is ook mijn ervaring met de saz instrumenten die ik heb.
Ik heb zeer interessante info gevonden over de lak die Stradivarius gebruikt zou hebben voor zijn instrumenten. De info komt van een Amerikaanse professor Nagyvary.
''One of the most widely known theories is that the secret lies in a special kind of varnish used. Scholars from Cambridge University used electron microscopy to identify many of the ingredients of the varnish itself and the materials used to smooth the surface before the varnish is applied (1). They concluded that most could have easily been bought from the pharmacist shop next to Stradivari's workshop and that there is no convincing evidence to support the idea of a secret formula. Joseph Nagyvary has a slightly different take on the varnish issue. He claims that the local lumberman and the local apothecary simply happened to supply Stradivari with the ideal wood and perfect varnish; the production of his magnificent and extraordinary instruments was just a lucky accident (3).
The secret to producing such amazing tonal quality, he claims lies in the varnish. Nagyvary proposes the idea that the insect-repelling mixture of "salt of gems" (which are finely crushed crystals) and borax that the Cremonese violin makers used as varnish is what fossilized the wood to a perfect pitch (3). He believed that the violin makers treated their wood with mineral solutions, which is not a far-fetched idea, as the alchemy books of the time had plenty of recipes for mineral-rich wood preservatives used by furniture makers to protect chairs and tables against damage from insects and general rot. Salt of gems was commonly used as well to add stiffness to the wood and make the finish glitter. Nagyvary's idea is that the accidental chemical reaction of phosphates and wood lifted Stradivarius's violins to a whole new level.
The finish of the most pristine of the surviving Stradivarius instruments has a brittle, almost glassy look. If Stradivari's varnish contained sugar or a polysaccharide, the molecules would have attached to one another and to the wood, stiffening it so it could vibrate more efficiently (4). Fruit-tree extracts were widely used in wood varnishes as well, and Nagyvary claims that the pectin creates polymers which continue to add to the superior brilliance of the Stradivarius tonal quality (3). Unfortunately, ultraviolet photography has revealed that many fine-sounding Italian violins have lost almost all their original varnish. These violins were recoated during the 19th century or later (1). Therefore, the composition of the varnish may have had little to do with the overall superior tonal quality of the Stradivarius violins. ''
Ik heb niet veel verstand van scheikunde, maar het lijkt wel logisch wat deze man claimt. De lak die Stradivarius gebruikte, bevat mineralen(calcium, magnesium) en zeer fijne steen. Dit maakt de lak harder, stijver.
''On the most pristine surviving Stradivarius violins, by contrast, the finish has a brittle, almost glassy look. "It's like a toffee apple," says Nagyvary. He believes that there are good reasons for this. A toffee apple's surface is hard and shiny because the molecules that make up its sugar coating link to form long, interlocked chains. If the Stradivarius varnish contained sugar or a polysaccharide, the molecules would have attached to one another and to the wood, stiffening it so it could vibrate more efficiently, the opposite of what happens with oil.
Nagyvary found support for his belief in 16th-century documents noting that wood finishes frequently contained powdered glass, porcelain or amber to add stiffness to the wood and make the finish glitter like a gem, and that fruit-tree extracts were widely used in wood varnishes.
"This makes perfect sense," he says. "The pectin creates beautiful polymers. It's what makes jellies jell." He picks up a beaker filled with a solution of gum from the guar plant. He adds borax, "in this mixture it acts as a cross-linker, weaving the chains of sugar molecules into a web". Suddenly, the liquid solidifies into a gelatinous mass. "We need an emulsifier, to make it fluid enough to work into the wood. I like to use ox-bile." He also adds quartz, amber, gypsum, coral, zinc and powdered ruby and sapphire. By the time he's ready to apply the mixture to the instruments he makes, it has the consistency of mayonnaise. ''
Nagyvary heeft zijn violen en Stradivarius' violen laten bespelen voor een publiek met van veel mensen. De mensen wisten niet of Nagyvary's viool of Strad's werd bespeeld. Aan het eind, werd er geen verschil gevonden tussen beide violen.
Hier is wat meer info over de speciale lak:
''On the most pristine surviving Stradivarius violins, by contrast, the finish has a brittle, almost glassy look. "It's like a toffee apple," says Nagyvary. He believes that there are good reasons for this. A toffee apple's surface is hard and shiny because the molecules that make up its sugar coating link to form long, interlocked chains. If the Stradivarius varnish contained sugar or a polysaccharide, the molecules would have attached to one another and to the wood, stiffening it so it could vibrate more efficiently, the opposite of what happens with oil.
Nagyvary found support for his belief in 16th-century documents noting that wood finishes frequently contained powdered glass, porcelain or amber to add stiffness to the wood and make the finish glitter like a gem, and that fruit-tree extracts were widely used in wood varnishes.
"This makes perfect sense," he says. "The pectin creates beautiful polymers. It's what makes jellies jell." He picks up a beaker filled with a solution of gum from the guar plant. He adds borax, "in this mixture it acts as a cross-linker, weaving the chains of sugar molecules into a web". Suddenly, the liquid solidifies into a gelatinous mass. "We need an emulsifier, to make it fluid enough to work into the wood. I like to use ox-bile." He also adds quartz, amber, gypsum, coral, zinc and powdered ruby and sapphire. By the time he's ready to apply the mixture to the instruments he makes, it has the consistency of mayonnaise.''
Dus volgens Nagyvary, moet een goede lak, zeer fijn steen, zeer fijn glaspoeder, bevatten om de lak stijver te maken, waardoor het bovenblad beter vibreert. Je moet ook iets toevoegen om de lak, met het glaspoeder EEN te maken, pectine of borax. Hierdoor krijg je polymeren. Dit kun je natuurlijk zo niet aanbrengen, daarom gebruik je een emulgator, Nagyvary gebruikt ox bile(gal). Uiteindelijk krijgt ie iets wat lijkt op mayonnaise en dit kun je op het bovenblad aanbrengen.
Hier is een kort videootje hierover:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pKKRNDdV7M
Is een beetje moeilijke info, maar ik denk dat deze info ons kan helpen om echt beter geluid te krijgen uit onze instrument.
Ik wacht op jullie reacties.